Legality of poker?

Why isn't poker legal in India?
As all poker players will know, poker is more a game of skill than a game of chance.
According to the Indian Gambling Act (or whatever its called!), anything which involves a chance is illegal as it is gambling.
However, Rummy according to indian law is not gambling! and is a game of skill and is therefore legal to be held in India. By that argument, I feel that poker should definitely be legal as well cos its more a game of skill then anything else.
Yes, there is an element of luck involved in the fact that you don't know the next card (the traditional definition of gambling in the case of cards is that once a deck of cards is shuffled and is at random it is a game of chance.), however, saying that, unlike rummy, in poker, every player is equal and does not have to fold his hand and it is totally his choice whether he wants to continue or not unlike games like roulette or Blackjack.
I think its upto the IPRT to take this initiative up with the Indian Government to try and get it going.

Hi Pranav...IRPT also has a precedent in a bangalore ruling that has stated that poker is a game of luck not chance. I remember reading that article a few months back but not sure of the exact date . That is what precisely impedes the mass marketing of this game and needs to be taken up to build a market which I assume is what IRPT is all about eventually

i know its deemed as a game of chance.
i find it hard to understand why rummy is a game of skill in that case.
either both should be games of chances or both should be games of skill.

Also, to the IPRT people, why can't the free tournaments (the no buy in etc) tournaments be held anywhere in india? there is no money involved and therefore there is no gambling..
Its going to be hard to go to goa for them. Most of the people I know who play poker and i know a lot, are not professional poker players and play cos they enjoy it.. they will not be willing to go to goa just for this though I know that if there was something like this in delhi, all of them would jump at it.

Hi Pranav ...I suggested that they host an online game at thier site each week .This was foster membership and will also foster more awareness . As for making this legal ...I dont think anyone has fought legally for it yet as the game itself has very little money potential to anyone due to lack of awareness. Indians are not exposed to card games other then rummy and teen patti . Internet penetration is low so who would really benefit in carrying out such a massive exercise of awareness

I agree with Pranav.
Rummy is also a game of chance/luck along with the skills; so as Poker.

I feel it should made be legal. However before that I feel IPRT/PIE should make it popular by making publicity and attracting more players.

online is not fun compared to across the table..
i would tend to disagree on the awareness bit.. I know loads of people who play poker.. in fact i just heard about a game involving 7 tables last week!
i think people are aware and there are a lot of small home games all over india and people are really looking for an organised way to play and test their skills beyond the home games!

Pranav: Where do u put up?

Delhi. you?

Delhi? where in Delhi?

Take my no. in case......9873840800

all over delhi.. lol
Hauz Khas to be more specific

near by...am in Malviya Nagar.

would u be going to Goa?

No i dont think so..
I dont know whether Im gonna be in India at that time yet.
how about u?

have u ever been before?
am kind of not sure, first time yes for 25th Sep event which is free entry and then would probably see the 26th Sep event for the first time and then decide further.
the fees is too high too enter for the first time

i've been to goa before.. cant go for the free event cos I have work on Fridays!! :S
yea i agree fees is too high and the payout is too low and to too few people.
only top 9 winning out of 200 is not ideal..

have u ever played live tournament before?
if yes, then can u guide me with few things?

nope.. never played a live tournament.. i usually play cash home games with friends... though I am sure I will be able to help you out..
what kind of help do u need?

no it was actually regading the live tournament only, like how do you go/enter, what to do, whom to meet, who is gonna help etc etc....

for that im sure since uve registered the IPRT people will get in touch with you as and when the time comes
i think its still in a very preliminary stage.. they need to fix up the casino etc before they can send u further details..
hold on.. im sure they are gonna reply to u soon enough

This a very valid and real aspect for the development of poker in India.
In USA the legality part is very controversial too and lately it has taken a high pitch. However a judge in South Carolina ruled in May 09 that poker is a game of skill. This ruling has been challanged by no less then the govt and it has gone up to a higher court for their interpretation.
It is felt that the SC court ruling will be upheld and that is good news.
Poker is a game of chance and skill. However, it requires more skill than chance.
Roulette or Bingo are games of total chance or luck. Chess is a game requiring total skill.
The judge in USA added that if poker was a game of pure chance then he will put laymen and poker pros in a room to play and he said he was sure the ordinary players will return losers. This means playing poker requires skill.
In a pure game of chance the player cannot determine whether he can win or lose. In poker the player can intentionally lose if he wants to. So he controls the outcome. It is not chance.
Pranav is right.
In Roulette whether the player likes it or not if his number comes he is the winner.

This is a very interesting article discussing whether poker is a game of skill or luck..
its in relation to the judgment in the US u are talking about.. and if it wasnt a game of skill.. there is no way the same person (johnny CHan) can win WSOP in two consecutive years and the same people cannot make the final table year after year!



Is poker a game of skill? Or, is it simply a game of luck? The answer is both, but to what exent is the real question.

Here are my thoughts: Poker is a game of luck, which I say is about 10%. The other other 90% is skill. This is why there are poker players who continually, year after year, make a profit from playing poker, and, why there are players that continually loose money money every year playing poker.

Take for example the World Series of Poker. All you do is have to watch and you'll see familiar faces of people are making it "in the money". Are these people that continually cash-in at the World Series of Poker almost every year lucky? Were they deal pocket aces every hand? Of course not! They used their knowledge and experience of tournament poker. The old saying goes something like this: "It's not the cards your dealt, it's how you you play your cards".

Knowing when and how to play your cards is key. There are several factors that affect your decision on how to play your cards. Such factors include-position, knowledge of players in the hand, size of the pot, stage in the game (tournament poker), chip stack, number of players remaining, what cards you are actually dealt, and several other factors. Having experience and a deep understanding of these factors are what truly separate the skilled players from the non skilled players (donkeys).

It's also about bankroll management. One of the biggest mistakes that even highly skilled pokers make is putting all their money in one "basket". They go to a table and use their entire bankroll. This is a poor management of your money because, even if you are the best play by far at the table, there will always be bad beats. If you have $500 in your bankroll, you probably should not sit at a table where you can buy-in with $500. Because you just might be dealt pocket aces and lose to another player with $500 who beats you with their straight on the river. Now, if you sit at a table where the buy-in is for $100, and you are a skilled player, you can probably make money. But, in the even that someone beat your second nuts, you still have a at least $400 in your bankroll.

"Poker is an investment much like buying a stock"

Gin Rummy is a game of skill - like bridge. The clear marker being there is no actual betting, but payments according to points accumulated. And over a period of time, one can develop your Gin game to be perfect - lookup Stu Ungar.

On the other hand, poker does have an element of chance to it. Also I think the betting action is frowned upon. Somehow govt. thinks betting on horse races is completely ok though.

IANAL, and I don't know the bangalore ruling, but you should lookup whether that was about (Teen patti)flash or poker. I mean, in flash - you don't have any information about other players other than reads, so you are mostly running against luck. in Poker - skill has a lot of role, and it should be considered a separate game.

But again, even cricket has an element of chance to it - nobody is calling that a game of chance though.

Finally - they are having a hard time trying to prove this in USA too - for online gambling stuff.

pranav wrote:Why isn't poker legal in India?
As all poker players will know, poker is more a game of skill than a game of chance.
According to the Indian Gambling Act (or whatever its called!), anything which involves a chance is illegal as it is gambling.
However, Rummy according to indian law is not gambling! and is a game of skill and is therefore legal to be held in India. By that argument, I feel that poker should definitely be legal as well cos its more a game of skill then anything else.
Yes, there is an element of luck involved in the fact that you don't know the next card (the traditional definition of gambling in the case of cards is that once a deck of cards is shuffled and is at random it is a game of chance.), however, saying that, unlike rummy, in poker, every player is equal and does not have to fold his hand and it is totally his choice whether he wants to continue or not unlike games like roulette or Blackjack.
I think its upto the IPRT to take this initiative up with the Indian Government to try and get it going.

Pranav has a valid point here for Indian Poker players.
However, this is also relevant in most of the other countries excluding a few tourist destinations like the Caribbean and a few others. Many countries have legalized casinos in specific areas eg Las Vegas etc.
In India the Govt has approved Goa and now Sikkim. Playing these tornaments at Casino Sikkim and at table gaming casinos only in Goa (the offshore casinos) is the legal way as of now in India.

but if you hold tournaments without any money involved then it is not gambling right?
so why cant ur tournaments (like the one on Sept 25th) be held in other cities as well..
It cannot be classified as gambling unless and until there is money involved.

The catch is there is a tangible reward.

For example - what stops people from gambling for a car let's say. Not real cash, winner gets the car thats all.
- now lets say everybody will pool in a car of their own and winner will get all the cars.

It would be very hard to explain these to officials.

bottom line, since iprt is publicized this much, there is a high risk of cops busting in. When cops catch chips and cards, I think money is not necessary to prove that people were gambling. fwiw, they can catch you even if you have a paper in which you are noting scores. (I have been caught like that once on a train:) - cost me 50 bucks!).

Conversely, If I were IPRT, I wouldn't hold this in any city without a written approval from the commissioner of police or a higher authority.

But you can be sure once someone gets such an approval and it goes public, there will be TONS of moral policers who would love to take this oppurtunity to create some havoc like a bandh / strike to get some cheap publicity.

Am not trying to be too negative (yeah right), but this is the current state of our sweet motherland.

hahahahaha..
what were u playing in the train?

i do agree with you though. The only other option is to hold it "underground" which has way too much risk. though i do think there is a stipulation that the house makes no money.. im not too sure on that but if there is a stipulation like that then it can surely be held..