Here is something to think about ..... the next time you get three bet!

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    fminc
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    Here is something to think about ..... the next time you get three bet!

    Post by fminc on Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:54 am

    Hi everyone,
    I thought I would kick open some strategy discussion on this board with my first post, I hope others will follow. I think we can expect some exciting content here from our members and outside guests this year. I know math and strat is not everyone's cup of tea, but whatever you have to add, be it an exciting story about poker, or breaking news ....... lets start here. In the future the forum will be divided into appropriate sections for ease of navigation. Remember the more you contribute, the more you get out of it. The moment you stop innovating in poker, you're finished.

    Also, a bit of news and gossip never hurt someone Smile.


    "" This dude does not stop three betting me .... wtf?? "" (Intermediate players)

    Well you get the picture by the title. We have all been there. You raise what is seemingly a decent raising hand like KJ clubs from the cutoff and the button three bets you. Or how about when u raise 77 and get three bet by the player to your left (( 3 bet means a re raise after the original raiser i.e. the two bettor has opened for a raise already )). Its a problem ... if it keeps happening, because you are leaving yourself open to exploitative play pretty much every time, if some one starts doing this with a 'high' frequency.

    Ok how 'high' is high? Well, there is no correct or specific answer here, lol, but put it this way, you will know. You just get that feeling, you don't need to have a calculator to know if someone is three betting way higher then normal.

    How is this exploitative? Well assuming you raise to the standard 3x or 3.5x, he three bets you to 11 bets and you call and basically play fit or fold creating a ton of dead money. Note: you are out of position all the way (OOP).



    So what do we do?

    How about the next time, you get dealt 55, you bring it in for 3.5 times the big blind and when raised to 11 bb's, how about ...................... Shoving!?

    Huh? What risk my stack with 55, whaaaaa??

    ok, lets take a closer look

    Villain three bets you wider then normal (obviously he is, you know that already, he cant have AA, AK everytime right?) ...... but when you shove,

    What hands is he willing to call his stack here?? (We assume 100 bb stacks, cause deeper is obvious problems)

    Lets see .... AA KK QQ AK AQ suited unsuited maybe, maybe even AJ suited. JJ maybe 10 10 maybe, maybe A10 suited.

    So with that calling range, our equity against villain is about 39 %. Wow, do you see where I am going here?



    Obviously all our Villains are not the same and will call with tighter ranges, but that can still favor you to make this move, I will analyze the Expectation for this play in a bit, gonna go bet the oscars. B back in a bit.




    dhruv

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    Re: Here is something to think about ..... the next time you get three bet!

    Post by dhruv on Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:35 pm

    Hi Fminc nice thread just thought id give my ideas on the same .

    A lot will depend on the style of play you are adapting in a game lets assume you want to play be agressive and raise your marginal hands like j10 suited maybe even off suit once in a while but dont want to get three bet as these hands will get really hard to play out of position and to a three bet.

    Well something i tend to do in some of the games i play in is raise a lot of hands at the start of the game to setup a image which will help me get paid off later on and i dont want anyone to three bet me here cuz it will then defeat the point of my raises.

    So the solution to my problems if i find someone three betting me im going to wait for a reallly premiuim hand like a aa kk qq maybe jj ak and hope hes goin to three bet again and im going to make it a point to shove my whole stack in even if its way overrr the amt just to get the "BACK OFF"
    point across only diff frm yours being id be doing it with a really premium hand.

    fminc
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    Re: Here is something to think about ..... the next time you get three bet!

    Post by fminc on Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:11 am

    Ok, good point Dhruv, Ill get to that in a minute.

    just to complete

    Ok well lets say give Villain a much tighter range of calling our shove

    say AA KK QQ, AK AQs only for ex

    our shove with 55 is still 37 ish % against his range.


    So lets say in a vaccum, u do this play a hundred times, if he is calling with this tight a range he is folding 97% of his holdings, even with the earlier looser range, he is folding 95 + of those, but obv he can have those way more, well lets exxagerate and say that villain calls ur shove 30% of the time (Ill go into fold equity formulae next time i guess)

    then 70 times u pick up 11 + 3.5 + 1.5 = 15 * 70 = 1050 bb's

    the 30 times u shove u have about 38% of the equity, which is approximately 12 of those pots which cancel the other 12 leaving u about 600 bb's short.

    1050 - 600 = 450bb's / 100 = 4/5 bb's every time u try this, i might be a lil off, but its late.




    Dhruv,

    I see your point, you are taking advantage of ur looser image earlier to set exactly a mirror image of what I am talking about, which is fair enough, but i think that is a different dynamic, here "you" are the one raising I guess to set up the ++ev shove with say KK.

    But if you take a look at what Im saying, put it this way, what do you do with JJ???

    You raise , u get three bet, what if u shove, fair right?? why not??

    but do you see that JJ = 10 10 = 55 = 22 against his calling range really (im putting a typical LAGish three bettor here), not much difference between JJ and 55

    we have to see weather he is willing to call off his stack with 77 or 99 AND IF HE does, well we then do what you said and wait ourselves for the real McCoy.


    Anyway, I think we can use this thread to discuss more, and ill post some more stuff i think can clarify what I am saying later.

    Later.

    fminc
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    Re: Here is something to think about ..... the next time you get three bet!

    Post by fminc on Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:14 am

    P.S.

    Another point, when u dno make the shove with pocket pairs, u r exactly driving away the hands he has a ton of equity against u post flop (with AJ AQ KQ A10 KJss, all suited connectors = ALL HANDS he can 3b with), so by shoving u drive out a TON of his range, unless he is a complete maniac and calls u with 910 suited, which obv is also good).

    P.S.

    plus this is what gives u a good deal of balance, Balance = everytime i shove with AA, I shove two times woth small pocket pairs/AK AQ/ bluffs and Air

    dhruv

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    Re: Here is something to think about ..... the next time you get three bet!

    Post by dhruv on Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:27 pm

    ok so i agree shoving with those pairs will def have +ev and also it will help you to raise a basic starting hand like j10 off suit and not get three bet at as the player will be scared of a shove.

    nice thread i learnt something new.

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